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Lock'n'Lode
IGN64 interviews Douglas Smith, creator of the famous Lode Runner franchise.
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February 17, 1999 - IGN64 sat down with Douglas E. Smith, the creator of the original Apple II classic Lode Runner and executive property manager of the latest installment in the franchise, Lode Runner 3-D. The programmer turned producer talked in length about the changes in the long-running series and his aspirations in game design. 

Q: Can you talk a little bit about how the original Lode Runner concept and game came about? 

Doug: The original Lode Runner game came about in the summer of '82. A that point in time I was a student at the University of Washington studying architecture and my minor was in numerical analysis. As a starving student I took a part-time job at the campus. That job was a consultant at the academic computer center basically my job was to help the students log-on, print their jobs etc, etc. But for the summer quarter there are basically no students so I'm sitting at a desk with nothing to do and I had access to the computers. So to occupy the time where I was just paid to sit there and do nothing, another friend and I started to write a game. 

He worked on it for about two weeks with me and then he bailed -- and I kind of pushed it through the summer. It was a game that was available to all the students and it became kind of a cult thing. It got put up there were everyone had access to it and a lot of people started playing it. Part of the appeal was that people would design levels, and I'd try to add new features. Some features were cool, some features people were like - nah! That summer a lot of features were added and removed and it was customized and ran on the VAX 11780 which is a Digital Equipment Corporation minicomputer and it was written in Pascal Fortran with some assembly language and it became pretty popular. Towards the end of the summer when I'd go in at night to play on the computers I'd drag my eight year-old nephew Nathan Williams along. At eight years he didn't quite understand, he would just ask me "can't you just put it on a floppy and bring it to the Apple II so I could just play it at home?" 

He just kept bugging me to put it on a floppy and bring it home so he could play it there. After he bugged me enough, one weekend I re-wrote it for the Apple II, basically in three days. It was kind of a crude version that was medium-res, black and white, no joystick -- just keyboard only, but it was a functional Lode Runner pretty much to what the version is today. At this point I think I submitted it to Broderbund, and I think that was about October. Broderbund sent me back a rejection letter. It was a one line rejection letter, "Thank you for submitting your game concept. Unfortunately it does not fit within our product line." That was the end of it. 

Q: Was it called Lode Runner at this stage? 

Doug: At this stage it was called Miner. I was given a lot of encouragement from friends and so forth to not give up hope. I borrowed $1000 which back then got you a color monitor and a joystick, I think. So I bought a Amdek and a joystick and worked on it again until just before Christmas of '82. At that point I sent it off to four companies, Sierra On-Line, Broderbund, Sirius and Synergistic. And by Christmas I had offer letters from all four companies. With Broderbund the percentages were a little bit lower but it was on a sliding scale and theoretically there was more in there for me. At that point in time when I signed with Broderbund, they said if they sold 10,000 copies they would be happy and I should be happy. So I signed with them at the end of '82 then I continued to work with Broderbund through June of '83 on refinements, title screens, animations, level editor, and it got released in June of ,83 on the Apple II. 

Q: How many copies did it sell in the end? 

Doug: On the Apple II, I'm not sure of specifics -- probably a couple of hundred thousand which was pretty phenomenal for back then and then I went down to Broderbund in June of '83 and worked on the Commodore 64 and the Atari 800 versions. I did the Atari 800 version and one of my friends did the Commodore 64 version and I was helping with someone who was working off site doing the IBM version. 

Starting in Fall of '83, I started doing a lot of press tours with Broderbund. A lot of people don't realize that Lode Runner's sales volume has probably been about 80% in Japan. Hudson Soft published Lode Runner as one of the first 10 titles on the Famicom in Japan and we did like a million and half units there alone. Between all the platforms I would put all the copies at over 3 million. 

Q: When we first heard about Lode Runer 3-D (called Lode Runner 64 back then), Banpresto was credited as the publisher over in Japan. Was the foundation for the game laid over there? 

Doug: Well, when I first signed with Broderbund in 1983 I signed for a 10-year term and they owned the property and handled all the sub-licensing. In 1993 the property came back to me, trademarks and everything, so I've been trying to manage the property. I was working with other companies so I licensed the property out, and one of the licensees I did was with T&E Soft, they made a few golf games and stuff. So I licensed the Super NES version to them as well as committing to one on the next generation Nintendo platform -- no one knew what it was to be called at that stage. So they had the rights to the N64 version, unfortunately with the market conditions it wasn't a product that they could do so they licensed it off to Banpresto. So at that point in time Banpresto was looking at setting up US distribution, but market conditions kept changing and they decided not to and it was at that stage that Big Bang went out and found Infogrames as a publisher. 

Q: Considering the fact that you made the old Lode Runner games by yourself, how has your role changed for the upcoming 3-D version? 

Doug: The role I'm taking on now is executive property manager, hands-on in licensing the deal -- and I wanted a more direct role in the product development because, well, how do I say this... The previous versions were not to my satisfaction. I'm really impressed with the current version how well it goes back to the gameplay of the original version. This is 17 years that I've been involved with this property. For 15 years all that I cared about was the check, with this version I'm re-invigorated, I love the product and I want to make sure that kind of quality continues with future products. 

Q: When I think of Lode Runner, I think of a small, single-colored character made up of a few pixels. He didn't strike me as a very modern guy... How did the whole futuristic slant come about for this one? 

Doug: Those creative decisions were made by other people -- back then, the platforms didn't allow for much style in the graphics and everything. In the original version I did the art, I did the sound, I did the programming -- and I am the world's worst artist! 

The futuristic style, I think that has just naturally evolved from the original premise. You're running around with your laser drill pistol using that to blast away the rock and grab the gold and run, avoid the Bunglings -- over a period of time they've turned into the "Monks." 

Q: Are there still Monks in this game? 

Doug: Yeah they're called Monks in this game. 

Q: Lode Runner was a big hit on the Apple II and the early PC systems. Do you think the younger generation of gamers brought up on gaming consoles will be able to identify with Lode Runner? 

Doug: That's a big question I think we're all anxious to see answered. I think with people of my vintage they've seen a lot of remakes like Battlezone and Asteroids. I kind of analyze the two together, that the movie industry and the game industry are moving together. The game industry is starting to catch up with the movie indsutry and we're seeing a lot of remakes. Like lots of kids have seen movies today that are remakes of old movies. They don't necessarily know the old movies but they like the new product. 

Q: What about the hardcore, older Lode Runner fans that grew up with the old version, do you think they will enjoy this new slant on the franchise? 

Doug: Yeah. Of all the versions I think this is the one that goes back to what everyone found as enjoyment value in the original. 

Q: What was behind the decision to go for a restricted path 3D rather than the full 3D we're seeing in a lot of platformers nowadays? 

Doug: It confines the puzzle solutions back to the original, there is finite space that you can work within and you have to find a solution from the tools available. If you go to free space, you're not constrained into these puzzle solutions -- and the simplicity that this viewpoint implementation offers is that it makes it approachable for not just those hardcore gamers. So we're trying to see if maybe the son picks it up, maybe the Mom and the Dad will pick it up, unlike your Tomb Raider or Duke or Quake. It offers some simplicity that as a gamer I also enjoy. 

Q: It's true, with so many 3D games out there now you're not only wrestling with the puzzles, you're also wrestling with the controls and the camera. In the first generation of 3D platform games, like Mario 64, you sometimes see a lot more of the plumber's butt than the actual the scenery... 

Doug: Right. And Miyamoto said they spent about 80% of their time working out the camera angles and the room designs, and like you say, it's still not perfect. But Mario does a great job compared to some other products out there. 

There have been previous versions of Lode Runner where they've tried to go to a more free-space design and it's lost that original puzzle aspect. The Lode Runner copyright does not copyright a character, like Mario does, it copyrights a play mechanic, and the play mechanic is the heart and soul of what Lode Runner is. Q: So you defintely don't want to branch out into Lode Runner Kart Racing? 

Doug: Talk to me in a couple of years! [laughs] 

Q: Many of the puzzles are based on the old play mechanics. What are some of the new innovations that we haven't seen in a Lode Runner title before? 

Doug: The cascading ice, the heated floors, the ice machine, the double-diggable bricks -- those are simple items. They all add up to a completely different play mechanic. The original Lode Runner had 10 different "bricks" not like with some games that have 50. When you have too many it becomes too complex -- you're facing the game to constantly learn new things. It's pretty simple to understand 10 and it's just the combinations that create infinite possibilities. 

The new version has 18 building blocks. From 10 to 18 is not a huge leap. But the diversity of play that you experience if you play through the entire product -- there are 136 levels in there, but there could have been 10,000 variations. 

Q: Cosmetic differences aside, what are the differences between the five different worlds in the game? 

Doug: Fire world, ice world, Mountains of Madness, Bio Hazard and the Emperor's Realm. It's kind of back to the original Lode Runner, where the different combinations create the differences. Each world does have some unique play elements, yes, such as the ice, fire, and so on. The backgrounds are different, the music is different and the devices are different. There is just a little twist on how you use them in different worlds. 

Q: What's next for you after Lode Runner 3-D? 

Doug: Lode Runner 3-D 64 2! [laughs] 

Q: If you had the choice, would you rather make a 2D game? Anything "3D" today obviously sells games, kids look at the package and say "cool, 3D graphics, I've got to get this!" But we've talked to a lot of designers that say they wish they could make just a 2D game like in the old days. 

Doug: I think this version is a great example where you can bring in the 3D aspect but it's really still played on a 2D plane if you break it down. Yes, 2D from a game designer's perspective offers a lot more control. From a game design aspect 3D presents a lot of challenges. I remember back in 1985 game designers sitting down and saying, "wouldn't it be great if we had all this 3D hardware..." Well we've got it today. I'd say 90% of developers right now are overwhelmed and about 10% are able to execute quality product with good gameplay in 3D. It takes a lot of expertise and a lot of people still haven't acquired that expertise yet. 

Q: Have you had a chance to look at any of the games that are out for N64? 

Doug: I'm a huge fan of the N64, that's our primary platform. I've got five kids at home, so our house is a game playing fanatics house. 

Q: What are your favorite games on N64? 

Doug: I'm a Mario, Miyamoto fan. Again I like the puzzle solving aspects, and Mario or Zelda or anything typically have puzzle solving aspects to them. I'm not a first-person shooter fan, they're kinda cool but they'll hold my attention for about a half an hour only. My daughter loves Tomb Raider on PSX, but I have difficulty with the camera angles. With five kids the multiplayer games are great. In the future I would like to find the right vehicle for a multiplayer Lode Runner, without rushing it. 

Thanks for the interview. 

Interview by M. Casmassina, P. Schneider, and the Oz intern, A. Devidas
 